Wycliffe Gordon
How deep is the music
© Jazz Hot n°664, été 2013
The last time Wycliffe Gordon was interviewed in Jazz Hot, it was back in 2006, in the #627 issue. He was on the cover. The trombone player, the emblem of the Marsalis generation, has become a prominent figure in today’s jazz scene and in the teaching of the history of jazz and the passing on of its memory. In his last interview, he remembered his childhood in the south and his first influences. Today 46, Gordon is more than ever doing gigs when he doesn’t record. In this interview, he talks about his teaching vocation and his conception of music animated by gospel music. His different projects that led him to revisit the art of Sidney Bechet and to dedicate a whole album to Louis Armstrong, his heroe, participate in a deeply human understanding of jazz.
Interview by Mathieu Perez
Photo credit and caption, click on photo
Jazz Hot: In your last interview in Jazz Hot, you said that the trombone was neglected. Would you say the same thing today?
Wycliffe Gordon: I said that as a joke. The trombone is one of those instruments most popularly known in jazz. The trombone has always been associated with big bands. Trombone leaders never had the popularity of Tommy Dorsey. J. J. Johnson kind of brought the trombone to the forefront but he didn’t have the same notoriety as Dizzy Gillespie. You don’t see as many trombone players as leaders but I do run into quite a few guys. Since I did the last interview, there are more trombone players that are coming out. But they don’t have the notoriety of the saxophone players. That’s just a matter of marketing. You can pay for publicity. If you have enough money, you can get yourself popular. There are lots of trombonists around. I went to a record company once. The executive told me the trombone just doesn’t sell. I felt that was some BS. Growing up in the country, down south, I remember Pet Rocks. That was a fad at one time, well if you can sell Pet Rocks, surely you can sell decent trombone CDs (laughs). Anyway, it’s about marketing more than anything that has to do about music.
Today you have a strong activity as an educator. How did this vocation start?
I used to go to Wynton Marsalis’ [1] worshops and masterclasses. I developped a taste for teaching. I had students when I was in college but I was just showing things. But now I do workshops all over the world, from grade school to college and beyond. I love teaching. It keeps me on my toes just in terms of learning and my own ability. It keeps me challenged. It gives me an opportunity to find out what I know versus what I don’t and the things that I need to work on.
How do you initiate your students into jazz?
You present it to them. It’s a matter of introduction. When you share something with somebody, you can’t impose on them. When something is good, it’s good. It may not be your taste, but it doesn’t mean you cannot have an appreciation for it. So when I’m working with students that have never heard jazz before, they have a stigma attached to the golden age of jazz or if I’m talking with classical musicians, they have an idea of what a jazz musician is from the lifestyle to life choices. When you get into the music, I think jazz is more connected to humanity than any other music because you have the freedom to be yourself and to improvise. It’s like learning a language, you have true freedom of speech. Jazz through improvisation and collective improvisation is the only music where you are allowed to give an input into the total outcome of the situation. It’s always different. When you’re playing with jazz musicians of a certain level, you can create so many different things that do not have to be one way. You can play the same tune ten nights in a row and it can be ten completely different things and still be cool and great. That’s what I like about jazz. If people actually took the concept of what jazz is and what it means to be a jazz musician and play in a jazz band, I think they couldn’t help but love it because you get a chance to be a part of the total outcome. I think once the kids grasp that concept, they tend to love the music. If you put on John Coltrane’s Giant Steps, you might scare someone away from jazz. You have to build up to that. You know, I didn’t grow up listening to jazz. The first music I heard was classical music at home, gospel music at church and country music on the radio. I later came to hear jazz on recordings. It wasn’t a popular music when I was a teenager. Me and my buddies were into Kool and The Gang and Earth Wind and Fire. Once I heard the original recordings and the creativity that would take place and something about it kept me locked into playing jazz music and into that spirit and freedom to play and participate in jazz. Once you give that to students and you let them know that they actually contribute to the music, you’re showing them the box and the structure. Once you have the structure, it’s a point of departure. And when they get that, they love playing jazz.
 How much does the learning of the history of jazz increase the jazz experience?
If you understand the history of the music, then you can determine how you want to utilize it. My older son plays trombone. He likes to play bebop and only that. I said that’s fine but if he wants to work in varied situations, he should learn the history of jazz and how to play some classical trombone. I like the history of the music itself with its different idioms in jazz. I didn’t come to jazz listening to bebop. My introduction to music was through Louis Armstrong and then I started listening to the other stuff. I have an appreciation for it all. On most of my CDs, I play an Armstrong tune. That’s what I mean by learning the history of music. I grew up in a situation where the folks from the church thought there was a separation between the sacred music and the secular. I don’t happen to believe that even if it was difficult when I was younger. Having heard church music, having played jazz music and listening to it, you can create music that may combine different elements of each. So that’s something that I have always liked. When I did Slidin’ Home, I wanted to take forms of bebop and a New Orleans style tune. I wanted to take something that was traditional and idioms of jazz and gospel music and then write an original composition in a style that could be considered a standard. That was the concept behind Slidin’ Home. Since then, I’ve written a lot of music but I’ve only recorded mostly jazz with the exception of The Gospel Truth and In The Cross, both were done on Criss Cross Records. The Gospel Truth was mostly instrumental. Traditional hymns and spirituals were done in a jazz style. For In The Cross, I got closer to what I grew up with at church and employed a choir. I used jazz musicians that grew up in church and that had the same background playing in church, playing hymns and spirituals. I have an appreciation of lots of different kinds of music, even funk. I have done shows on holidays when I go home with some of my buddies. I have written music in that style, I just never recorded it.
You were involved with the Sidney Bechet Society. Is Sidney Bechet as important as Louis Armstrong in your life?
I worked with The Sidney Bechet Society that plays compositions in contribution to Sidney Bechet. The CD In a Tribute To Storyville is based on a show. I chose the tunes based on the title of the show. I wasn’t really thinking about a recording. I love that music. It’s the early style of playing. And even though Sidney Bechet spent most of his life in France, his contributions to music were equally as great as Louis Armstrong. He just wasn’t as popular because he left the country. The issues in our country during that time were difficult for African-Americans to make a living making music. So he went to spend his time in France. He’s one of the great innovators. I’ve always loved to listen to his playing, to his song-style approach to making melodies. When you hear him, you can hear the solo of a human being. Ultimately that’s what all the music should do.
What is the philosophy of swing music?
I like to live on the positive side of life. Music is something that always helped me through the rough times. For the most part, it has been gospel music. Because the root of my growing comes from the church in terms of live music. I heard jazz through recordings when I was 13. Even though I love jazz, gospel music always kept me centered. And the roots of jazz kind of come out of gospel. When you are in a situation where you’re playing with musicians that share the same approach and outlook on life, music serves as a vehicle to express that, it makes all the difference in the world. And you want to get that accross the kids. Music should be a joyious thing. If you’re feeling bad and you’re on a bandstand, no one needs to know that, you have a job to do. If you transmit it from the stage, people will feel it in the audience. There’s a joy in music and in jazz that enthrals people. At a camp I was doing in Vail, Colorado, a guy came up to me and said he wasn’t suppose to live past 3 to 6 months and it had been 2 years. One thing he wanted to do but never had a chance to do was to learn to play the saxophone. To fulfill his last wish, he got a saxophone. And that’s what kept him alive. It was such a moving story, I told him he should share it with people.
Years ago, jazz and dance used to be one.
Oftentimes when I’m teaching kids, I ask them if they dance to the music. Because the music is a dance. Dancing used to be a part of the music. There would be an energy, a dialogue between the music and the dancers. And it made you want to swing. When I’m playing for dancers, I’m always thinking of making the rhythms dance whether it’s a ballad or something swinging. When I see dancers dancing, there’s an energy that cannot be created otherwise. You can only recreate it if you’ve had that experience. I’m always thinking about dance even if it’s a ballad or a slow dance.
This is also true in the movies.
It’s one thing to hear Duke Ellington play « Cottontail » in the movie Hot Chocolate but when you see the dancers dancing to what they’re playing, then you get it. It makes you want to get up and move. Everytime you play, you want the rhythms to dance out of the horns. If you practice like that, it eventually becomes second nature. When you see the Nicholas Brothers in Stormy Weather dancing with Cab Calloway’s band, it’s crazy what they would do! When you see that, you realize that dancers are musicians. Back in the day, musicians were also pretty good dancers. They knew how to create movement with sound. When you can do that, it translates to people. They get it. They want to move with you. That’s something that I talk about with students all the time. Dance and music were more connected than they are now. Once I did this show at the Apollo, I think it was with the Juilliard Jazz Orchestra. At the rehearsal, the musicians had not played with dancers before so they were playing with their eyes closed. The soloist was playing with his eyes closed thinking of his chord changes. I told him to look at the dancers. You have to connect with everything that’s happening on the stage. Here’s an opportunity to connect with something that’s outside of yourself. That’s the whole point of this. It adds to the whole experience. When I’m playing a swing dance, I can’t close my eyes because I want to see the dancers dancing. I used to play a long time ago for John Dokes. Sometimes he would just come up at the front of the stage and dance to whatever I was playing. Then we would start playing together. If you weren’t watching, you could still enjoy the music but if you were watching you could get more enjoyment because we were dancing together. I was dancing with my horn and he was dancing with his body. I love the dance element in every type of music.
 What is the relationship between singing and playing an instrument?
Oftentimes I’ll tell my most accomplished trombone players to practice singing. Don’t even pick the horn up. The thing about singing is if you’re singing, your playing is going to get better. It’s always said that the instrument is an extension of your voice. I think it’s best to use your voice and to practice with your voice. If you can sing it, you can play it. So how do you find your voice? I think one of the best ways to do that is to use your voice to develop any aspect of your playing. You want to learn melodies? Sing. If you can sing it, you can hear it. The hardest part of practicing is the preparation to practice. You can always sing. You can’t always play the trombone, you need a specific place. So when you’re working on some aspects of your playing, if you can sing it, you can play it. That way you get the work done. I don’t have the horn in my mouth all day but there’s always something musical going on all the time. I’m always singing something or writing music or thinking of a musical idea or of a project I’m going to do. So if you want to find your voice, use your voice. If you sing, through imitation and transposition, you can learn certain aspects of J. J. Johnson’s playing, of Curtis Fuller’s playing, etc. But it’s all a point of departure. It’s like learning any language. But in music there are so many different vocabularies from the early recordings of the musicians till now. If you’re creative, you can go anywhere, and if you’re not creative, you have the vocabulary you can pull from in terms of stylistic playing, inflections you can use when you’re playing.
How important is gospel music in your life?
People often hear me playing jazz. With the album Word, they can see another side of me because gospel is what I came out of. Jazz became my work and my job and what I do. And I love doing it. But gospel is at the roots of who I am musically and as a person. And even though I don’t ascribe to one set of religious beliefs, I feel that I am a very spiritual person. Even when I’m playing jazz. It’s about a spiritual connection for me. The songs that I chose stuck with me from just growing up in church. « My God » and « Hallelujah Shout » are original compositions. « Sang My Song » is a blues but it has a choir on it. One of the reasons I’ve always wanted to do something like that was having grown up in church. As a child, I was told if I was playing jazz music that I’d be playing Satan’s music. I thought that Satan has some nice music. I was wondering how something that beautiful could be attached to something supposedly so ugly. That was something that lead me to question religious beliefs I was told when I was growing up in church. This music is beautiful. It has to be created by God or the greater good. So in « Sang My Song », the two come together. I’m glad to see that the mindset in a lot of places have changed and that people have open up to the truth and the things we are bound to use just created by man anyway.
Are jazz and gospel music on the same level?
There’s something about gospel that jazz really can’t touch. I hate to say it. Jazz is great. The past jazz shows I did were great and wonderful. But we did a gospel show. People are moved in a different way. Jazz has elements of spirituality in it. Jazz is very spiritual music. But when you start singing or performing the music that puts you in touch with your soul and belief, that’s the closest you can get to putting the human being in touch with themselves. When you start dealing with spirituality, now you’re dealing with where you came from and how you are connected to everything. And I’ve seen that. When you play gospel music, it’s difficult to go back to jazz, just in terms of programming. When you have people standing up and shouting and you can see that they are full of whatever spirit is moving them, jazz doesn’t compare. Johnny O’Neal told me that once in a festival in New Orleans Art Blakey was the headliner. He was scheduled to go on after some gospel choir. Johnny suggested that Blakey go on before the choir. But they didn’t do that. When that choir got through singing and when Art Blakey and the Messengers went on to play « Blues March », it’s not that it wasn’t great but when your spirit has been lifted… Gospel is the one thing that’s kept me centered. Back in the 1990s when I was on the road full time with Wynton, it gets difficult especially if you have a family. The 2 or 3 hours you have on the stage are great but the other 21 hours in the day just to get to the gig are difficult. Back in the bus, I’d listen to the Florida Mass Choir. There’s something about that music that has always put me in touch with the core of my being. And maybe it has something to do with my upbringing. Don’t get me wrong, jazz is a spiritual music but once you do gospel music, for me, you can’t play jazz after that because I feel that I’m in the highest place that I can be. Needless to say it was a bad decision on the part of Art Blakey. In the Cross is the closest thing that I’ve done to a gospel record. I was in the studio doing recording « Near The Cross » and Reginald Veal [2] was playing the bass, Marcus Printup [3] was standing next to me with Victor Goines [4]. We were playing and had a choir. When they came in singing, my eyes just began to water. I’d lost my father. Marcus Printup, I think, had lost his father. Reginald had lost his mom. When we started playing, I noticed that in the booth he turned his lights off. He knew the song and the arrangement. Eric Reed [5] was playing the piano. He’d lost his father. And we all grew up in church. When the choir came in singing, I didn’t want to lose the take, I was just standing there playing and crying. At the end of the take, Marcus came up to me and grabbed my hand. He said : « I feel you, brother. » Jazz has never done that to me. Gospel is at the core of who I am. Many pop singers grew up in the church. I don’t know if you’ve heard Aretha Franklin’s Amazing Grace that she did with James Cleveland and the Southern California Community Choir. It’s a great gospel record. Aretha was known as the queen of soul but her father C. L. Franklin was a popular preacher in Detroit. I think that would be one of the standard American gospel choir recordings. That’s the gospel that I grew up with. Aretha Franklin grew up in church and later made popular music. When you listen to the CDs, you hear her father say that she never left the church. And when you hear her singing, oh man…
The album Hello Pops! is not just a tribute. Could you explain your approach of Armstrong’s music?
Louis Armstrong is what brought me into jazz. That’s the jazz that I love. I chose the songs that mean something to me. Like « Keyhole Blues », that’s the song that made me want to play jazz. Doing the CD, people didn’t know I could play the trumpet. That’s because I can play with great trumpet players. But for this, I wanted to play trumpet. This is not a tribute but my thank you to Louis Armstrong for his contribution to music and really to humanity. I wanted to write a song that expresses my sentiments, it became « Hello Pops! » and « Pops for President ». « Dream a Little Dream of Me » is such a beautiful song that I wanted to sing it. And the significance of « Black and Blue », the Fats Waller tune, was very poignant to me. « Hello Brother » gave me the idea for « Hello Pops! ». I heard it when I was in college. It tells the story of any man (starts singing), « A man wants to work. . . for his pay, A man wants a place. . . in the sun, A man wants a gal proud to say, That she’ll become his lovin’ wife, He wants a chance to give his kids a better life, Well hello ah… » I wanted to put together two versions of « I Cover The Waterfront », recorded in 1923 or 1926 with The Hot Five, and a later version. I put them together and arranged it. Hello Pops! was one of my favorite CDs to make. I wanted to make a tribute of what Louis Armstrong meant to me as a young musician and person.
What did you learn from Louis Armstrong?
Louis Armstrong reminds us of what it means to be a human being. It doesn’t matter where you’re from, what you have or what you look like, we’re all the same. Pops made great music with a smile. I heard Lester Bowie say something about Pops, that he was a true revolutionary. A true revolutionary is someone that smiles in your face when he’s putting poison in your coffee, not that Pops was going to do something like that. People thought that Pops was bowing down to everybody but he stood for whatever he stood for. Even at one point when we were dealing with racial issues, Pops spoke out against President Eisenhower. His manager said he had to take back what he said. He said he wouldn’t take it back. At that time, African-Americans did not speak against powers that be. The great thing about Pops is that everyone can see some of himself in him. What was great is how music exemplified about him. And he was able to communicate that through music. In terms of improvisation, he’s one of the first great innovators in. He was a master of melody, harmony, rhythm. The great composer Hoagy Carmicheal who’s written hit after hit said he wished he had written the way Louis Armstrong sang his songs like « Up a Lazy River ». Pops would take things and try to make them better, to make you feel and sound better. And he wanted that for everybody. Even for the kids in his neighorhood in Queens. He never even really wanted to live in a house. Thank God his wife, Lucille, got a place for him to stay because he always just wanted to be on the road. He would get his haircut in a local barbershop. Even though he became an iconic figure all over the world, his feet never left the ground in terms of his humanity. He was always a person that talked to anybody. There wasn’t a place where he was unwilling to go. And when you think about it, he grew up in Storyville. He came from a horrific beginning. Everyone can see some of himself in Louis Armstrong. He could be around royalty and offer them some Swiss Kriss. Swiss Kriss, « Leave It All Behind Ya. » Another one I think of is Buster Cooper [6] who lives now in St. Petersburg, Florida. I love his trombone playing. But if I didn’t know he played the trombone, I would be just happy to see him coming. He’s always smiling. It’s as if the sun is shining out of him. That’s what I want to do with my music. Pops was a very spiritual person too. He made an album called Louis and the Good Book which is all spirituals and hymns. I remember one time having a discussion with the members of Wynton Marsalis’ band, back in the early 1990s, about whose album was most soulful between Louis Armstrong and Mahalia Jackson. They chose Pops.
________________________
1. Jazz Hot n°614
2. Jazz Hot n°610
3. Jazz Hot n°594
4. Jazz Hot n°636
5. Jazz Hot n°641
6. Jazz Hot n°537
Sélection discographiquehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MB3T0Pq-dEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWqMhXbW-B8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqpjf65FpV0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epHkaOxZhV8Summer 2013
15/6 : Ginny’s Supper Club, New York, NY 28/6 : Vail Jazz Festival, Vail, CO 29/6 : International Trombone Festival, Columbus, GA 6/7 : Centro Cultural Roberto Cantoral, Mexico City, MX 8-11/7 : Straight Ahead Jazz Camp, Chicago, IL 13/7 : Jazz Tage Lenk 2013, Lenk, Suisse 21/7 : Banff Summer Music Festival, Alberta, CA 22-27/7 : Centrum Jazz Port Townsend, Port Townsend, WA 2-4/8 : Satchmo Summerfest, New Orleans, LA 17/8 : Southern Tier Jazz Festival, Horseheads, NY |
|
